The above link is the original transcript of a meeting of
UNISON Paid officials in the London Region on 21 October 2015.
The transcript is in italics and the text in RED are
questions that remain unanswered.
You
can listen the meeting by clicking on the link here https://www.4shared.com/mp3/HTYMDTN-ce/unison.html
Transcript
begins.
“Sorry
not much choice on this. The piece of paper that you have got handed out um you
haven’t seen so it is not for distribution elsewhere.”
·
Who gave the Regional Secretary the permission to share this information?
·
What was on the piece of paper?
·
Who gave the Regional Secretary the piece of paper?
·
Who decided they could give this piece of paper to the Regional
Secretary?
“Ok”
“Um
because this has been obtained unofficially. You have not seen it and you don’t
hand it out anywhere.”
·
Who was the official who gave this information to the Regional
Secretary?
·
How did the Regional Secretary receive this information and when?
·
The Regional Secretary is instructing staff to lie and not to hand
it out, who gave permission for this action?
“We
have done very well and I want to thank everybody and congratulate them on
getting the nominations that they have got. This is a list of the Greater
London branch nominations for Dave Prentis the deadline closed last Friday, I
do not have a list of the other candidates, but that will appear in due course
but I have not got it. But we have done very well, we have got almost 50
nominations here so that is excellent and thank you very much, Dave is very
pleased and has asked me relate this to you personally it is very important as
obviously this is going to be a very hard fought election.”
·
Who is the Regional Secretary thanking?
·
Who gave permission for paid officials to actively secure
nominations for Dave Prentis?
·
When were paid officials told to start campaigning?
·
How did paid officials know they had to be campaign for Dave
Prentis?
·
How did paid officials get nominations for Dave Prentis?
·
Who gave the Regional Secretary the list of nominations for Dave
Prentis?
·
Who gave the Regional Secretary and paid officials permission to use
unison resources to actively campaign for Dave Prentis?
“There
are a number of branches we know as Karen, most of you not all of you, sent
them to Karen on what was going on and there are a number of branches also that
choose not to make a nomination. And so particularly for those of you that work
in Local Government and the EBS I know that some of you hard work in terms of
getting the nomination but not getting the nomination because you have got the
wrong one so just because you have got the wrong one so just because they are
not spoken here health team worked hard on the health branches so long as they
are effectively organised they produce results the heath branches the other
teams have worked hard in different ways so you have done well thank you.”
·
Who gave the instruction for paid officials to get nominations for
Dave Prentis?
·
What did paid officials do to get the nominations?
·
How were paid officials instructed to deliver nominations?
·
What communications were used to support paid officials deliver
nominations for Dave Prentis?
“I do
not have the final figure for John Burgess but I think he has around 15
nominations from London well more or less around that figures.”
“Heather
Wakefield has 3 nominations from London of which 2 are being challenged and
Roger Bannister I think has 2 nominations from 2 different branches.”
·
How does the Regional Secretary know about which nominations are
being challenged?
“So we
have done well thank you.”
·
Who is she thanking, is it everyone present how many paid officials
were involved in delivering nominations for Dave Prentis?
“So
you can see here which are your branches and I do not want anybody to do
anything without talking to their regional manager first. So um I do not want
anything coming out of this meeting with these named branches here you need to
talk to your regional manager about the approach.”
·
Why does the Regional Secretary instruct paid officials not to talk
to anyone, but to talk to their managers first?
·
What was the advice on the ‘approach’ to be given by regional
managers?
·
Which regional managers gave advice?
·
How many staff were given advice?
·
How was the advice given?
“What’s
going to happen next and what we need you to do in discussion with Vicky or
Helen or Chris and I remiss that I should have congratulated Helen on her
appointment as Regional Manager she is not official Regional Manager until 2nd
November but she is.”
·
What was the role of Vicky, Helen and Chris?
·
What instructions/advice did Vicky, Helen and Chris give to staff,
when and how often?
“So
what happens next the ballot will open on Monday 9th November and it will run
for 5 weeks which actually I cannot remember the date, sorry closes on the
14th, closes on 4th runs for four weeks.”
“So it
opens Monday 9th November and closes on Friday 4th December the announcement I
think will be on 17th December so the work really needs to take place in that
week before the ballot opens and in the first week of the ballot.”
·
What work does the Regional Secretary want staff to carry out?
·
Who carried out the work, when and how often?
“So
there are two jobs to be done one is to get the branches to encourage as many
members to vote as possible and the other is to talk to the branches that have
made nominations.”
·
What advice were paid officials giving to branches?
·
Who gave permission for staff to use unison resources to campaign for
Dave Prentis?
“So
let’s start with the branches that have made nominations.”
·
Who gave permission to focus only on branches that nominated Dave
Prentis?
“The
branches that have made nominations can legitimately and democratically should
notify their members that they have nominated Dave and that they have made the
nominations so they can send out an email to their members telling them that
the ballot is going to open on 9th November and that their branch nominated
Dave Prentis.”
·
Who gave permission to focus only on branches that nominated Dave
Prentis?
“They
can also legitimately put a footer on all emails saying vote in the General
Secretary elections and that our branch nominated Dave Prentis.”
·
Who gave permission to focus only on branches that nominated Dave
Prentis?
“They
can also send out a newsletter with a small piece in it that says General
Secretary Election opens on 9th November all members encouraged to vote and our
branch nominated Dave Prentis.”
·
Who gave permission to focus only on branches that nominated Dave
Prentis?
“Now I
am told that we are going to get wording for that but we have not got it yet,
but will get wording for that next week I am told so we can get that to you.”
·
“I am told..”: Who is the Regional Secretary referring to?
·
What wording did the Regional Secretary get to paid officials?
·
Who was it sent to and how?
“So
what we should get next week is a bundle of leaflets from the vote Dave Prentis
campaign, a huge bundle of leaflets I am told and we will get posters as well.
So the priority once we have got those is going to be for, not all of you
necessarily but some of you, to be approaching the branches that have made the
nominations and get the leaflets to them with the posters and sit down with
them, go through with them what they should be doing.”
·
Who gave permission for Dave Prentis leaflets/posters to be stored
in the UNISON London Region office?
·
Which paid officials carried out this action on behalf of Dave
Prentis?
·
Which branches were approached?
“What
you should really be doing is setting aside the three or four days immediately
after the lobby of parliament.”
·
Who gave permission to set aside three to four days for campaigning?
The lobby of parliament is the 2nd of November it is the
week before the ballot opens so we should have the materials by then it would
be good to talk to the supporting branches now or this week or early next week,
early next week will be fine. But set some time aside week commencing 2nd
November to actually get the leaflets and posters around the branches and to
sit down with the branch secretary with the wording and say right you can put
this email out and put this in the newsletter and put this as an email footer.
There are also branches that do Facebook and twitter there is some text for
Facebook and Twitter. So we need you to start planning ahead on that one talk
to the branches to be prepared and get them focused, the best will in the world
the branches will mean to do it but they won’t do it so you need to get them
focussed that this has to be sorted out by week commencing 2nd November cause
ideally they start putting stuff out just before the ballot starts um we do not
know for certain but I presume the ballot papers will start landing on 2nd
November. So talk to the branches get their head around the fact that the first
week Monday 9th November is when people will vote, if they do not vote that
week they will not vote at all, the ballot papers will be going out to their
home addresses so it’s quite obviously not straight forward to get them
organised to vote but if branches can get stuff out in the few days before the
votes opening, we want you to vote, we nominated Dave that’s what we need to
do, so that’s for the branches on this list.”
·
What unison resources were provided to carry out the actions
presented by the Regional Secretary?
·
How much staff time was spent visiting and speaking to branches?
·
How were branches contacted?
·
How were leaflets/posters distributed?
“For
all the other branches there is still a job to do but it is less focused and
less directed so you will have to use your judgement but everybody can get a
supply of leaflets and everybody can attempt to talk to friendly people in
branches, there will be branches that didn’t nominate because they could not
get their act together and there will be branches that nominated one of the
opposition and that you may not find it easy to go into at all or there may be
one or two people in silos in the branch who may be able to get leaflets out to
people who are interested in voting for Dave. So you will have to use your
judgement on that but we will have leaflets I hope sometime by midweek next
week so you can get a bundle and start getting them into the hands of those in
the branch who did not nominate.”
·
Who distributed the leaflets?
“This
is a lay member activity briefing so you understand so the lay members can hand
out leaflets to who they like there is nothing to stop them handing out to any
member at all and they should but they won’t have that benefit of openly
banging it round the branch publically and say we have made a nomination and
effectively we are not encouraging you to vote for Dave. But they can still
hand things out put stuff on notice boards scatter things in canteens and that is
what we want them to do.”
·
Which branches were contacted and who distributed the
leaflets/posters?
“We
have not been given this yet but there will be a helpline for people that have
lost their ballot paper and we do not normally get that until the ballot has
opened which is a pain in the neck normally opens a week after the ballots open
as soon as we have got that we will put it round and then you can talk to the
branches, those where there are queries or they think they need to contact them
as people will lose their ballot papers or the dog will be sick on it or kids
will rip it up.”
“Hand
shot up there and I will take questions in a minute.”
“This
is an absolutely critical election, John Burgess and Heather Wakefield.”
“I
understand that Dave got about 200 nominations they got around 50 each Roger
Bannister got around 25 30.”
“The SWP
and the ultra-left in the labour party are right behind John Burgess and have a
machine that they will attempt to get a vote out for.”
“Roger
Bannister might have a few nominations Niverton socialist party has a good
machine and will always turn a vote out for him.”
“Heather
Wakefield is an unknown entity as she is a woman and she is going to play the
woman’s card even though she has inspired her I did not hear it or I have heard
about it, on woman’s hour she was blaming unison for failing to do enough for
low paid women when she was responsible for it, I am not sure why that happens
but there will be an issue around her pushing I am the only woman candidate.
This is one of the toughest election that Dave has had to fight and it is very
important that Dave is delivered as I have said before that not one of the
others is capable of running the union quite frankly.”
“So it
is important that we get stuff out, there is also, getting the Dave Prentis
leaflets out are the most important thing when they arrive but there are some
about using your vote, get your vote heard which are the officially unison
leaflets about encouraging people to vote and some stickers which we have here
you might find that useful.”
·
Who gave permission to store and distribute Vote for Dave Prentis
leaflets?
“So
any questions.”
“One
more point sorry Chris has just prompted me your role in all of this you are
entitled to brief branches on what their rights are and what their role is in
this election you clearly cannot be caught out saying vote for Dave but we do
expect you to talk to branches, the nominating ones certainly about that. You’re
entitled to speak with them about the processes and procedures and I would want
you to do it just be careful what is put into the public domain you should not
be using official unison email to do this just be careful about witnesses to
conversations make sure friendly witnesses.
·
What is a friendly witness?
·
What did Chris say?
“Only
reason for saying that, two reasons, one is if we are caught out the opposition
may raise a complaint so it is important, opposition gets evidence that people
using unison resources which includes staff unison resources there could be
complaints so you just need to be careful and use your discretion and do not
use emails as these can be traced so carefully.”
“Right
sorry questions Carol first then Dario.”
“Carol
– Before when we have been talking to branches we were told we could say that
the NEC was supporting Dave, when the branches email members can they say that
the NEC and region is.”
·
What were paid officials told before?
·
How did paid officials know before 21 October to go out and campaign
fro Dave Prentis?
·
What resources were used to start the campaign?
That
is a good point I had not thought about that one I think the important thing is
where branches have nominated him they can say that they have nominated but yes
I think branches can say that NEC and London Region have nominated him.
·
Who gave permission to focus only on branches that nominated Dave
Prentis?
Dario
– bit of a tricky question, with those branches that have nominated Dave it is
straight forward they can receive leaflets but those branches that have
nominated other candidates but we find that we can trust someone let’s say
within the branch so we can hand these leaflets to and then the branch officers
ask questions where did they get them from?”
“They
got them from the regional convenor is all you need to tell them, they got them
from the regional convenor of the regional convenor team is perfectly fine”
·
Paid officials are being told to lie if questioned about the Dave
Prentis leaflets, was regional convenor and the regional convenor team aware of
this approach?
“Jamie
then Zecial”
“Jamie
– The branches that made no nominations – inaudible – they can still put an
email to encourage people to vote and still say the NEC and Region support, it
still encourages it rather”
“The
priority message has to be the election is happening and encouraging members to
vote and then as a sort of drop in and throw away then yes the NEC and Region
nominated Dave.”
“Zecial
– branches that have not nominated no one and then they cannot be encouraged to
vote for particular candidate but if they use their personal email account but
they cannot use their branch chair or branch secretary email – inaudible”–
“Yes
it does if anything is sent out in the official mail to the branch or by the
branch secretary in their official capacity can only do so if they made an
official nomination. So if the branch has not made an official nomination then,
you’re talking about the opposition?”
·
Who gave permission to focus only on branches that nominated Dave
Prentis?
·
Who made the decision to call unison branches the ‘opposition?’
“Zecial
– no nomination but someone in the branch wants to encourage the members”
“Well
they can only do it in a personal capacity and they should not be using unison
resources and they shouldn’t be using unison titles and they shouldn’t use
unison mailing lists, yeah. So that I the official line and the official
position and that applies to people supporting Dave as well, means they can
still do personal emails but they shouldn’t be using unison mailing lists.”
“Clare
and Rachel”
“Clare
– so the two weeks you have mentioned before and after the opening of the
ballot would that be a good two weeks to tie up the branches to vote wrong way
in this other activity – laughter – one if I have one branch vote the wrong way
I could get them to convert their intention.”
·
Who agreed that it was acceptable to use unison resources to ‘tie up
branches’
“Yes
excellent idea, lobby of parliament that is a good idea Clare.”
“Rachel
– inaudible”
“I
think they can we have always said they can, inquorate meeting, did not fill in
form properly then they still can but if it was not a quorate meeting it more
important”
“Barry
– Branches putting out positive messages from their own, negative messages
about other candidate’s”
“They
should not put out negative messages about the other candidates Dave campaign
is a positive campaign it is about them so no they shouldn’t that might invite
challenge slander liable”
“Joy
and Joe”
“Joy –
I cannot wait for your newsletter – inaudible-"
·
What was the newsletter?
“Ok
Good I think it will be next week mind, if you want to put something out this
week not a problem perhaps put the wording through one of us first.”
·
Who submitted wording and how was it used and by whom and when?
“Joe –
Unfriendly branches that have not nominated Dave, we will come across those
branches, if we come across those campaigning in ways they should not have been.”
·
Since the transcript and audio recording have been in the public
domain for almost 17 months what steps have been taken by UNISON to confront the
negative attitudes shown towards branches who did not support Dave Prentis?
“I
think it depends what it is but the best bet is to contact the RMT, contact
Karen, it depends what it is and how serious it is as to if it is worth
registering, but there is a complaints process.”
·
Who gave permission to provide resources to support Dave Prentis
campaign?
“Clarification
Hayley from Southampton”
“I do
not know for sure, but there was word she was not going to get enough votes.
She needed 25 votes for nomination, I do not think she got that but I do not
know for certain.”
“Inaudible
question –
“Yes
they can yep 2nd November yes they can definitely”
The
burden talking to health branches will mainly fall to health team but you
should talk to Chris. Some staff will have a heavy burden and other not so much
so share it out a bit.
·
What is the burden?
·
What role did Chris play in securing nominations for Dave Prentis?
·
Who else was the ‘burden’ shared?
“Local
government speak to Vicky”
·
What advice did Vicky provide?
“EBS to
Helen about the nominated branches.”
·
What advice did Helen provide?
“As
soon as we have leaflets Karen will get the word around the region that they
are in her office even though she will not say what they are.”
·
Dave Prentis leaflets stored in the HQ of Unison London region, who
distributed them and when and how?
“So
set some time aside 3rd, 4th 5th November to see the branches.”
·
Who gave permission to allocate three days to campaign for Dave
Prentis?
“Vicky
– Just a quick one on emailing that also includes you don’t email Karen to say
you want more of those leaflets it’s any email no emails at all on this. Don’t
email the branches you want to see.”
"Shall
we move on to the trade union bill."
Ends.